|
Engine Mount, Gear Legs |
General I think that Bob said that it would take about 2K for paint, etc. That seems a bit much for paint N stuff. Can you elaborate on that Bob. How many coats of base coat and clear? About how much paint does it take to paint an F-1? thanks billy Billy, I don't have my receipts but between paint, hardeners, primer, sealer, reducers, sandpaper, masking tape, tack rags, scothbrite pads, masking paper, booth rental and paint gun I had 2K in painting my RV-6. I used dupont Centari, would definitely not go that route again. I think it was around $180 a gallon. It is basically Imron when you add the hardener. IIRC it took 6 qts Variprime, 8 qts sealer, 4 gallons paint, two gallons prepsol. Two pints for stripes. Four gallons may sound like alot but a large amount goes to waste if you paint one wing one week, the other one the next, booboos, etc. The base/clear is more expensive. Some paints are downright salty. Dupont makes a base called Chromalusion, it changes color when you look at it from differently angles. That stuff is $350 a PINT. Bob When I painted my RV-6 with Imron 5000, the total bill for paint, hardner, primer, clearcoat, and thinner was slightly over $2100. That doesn't count the cost of fillers, sandpaper, the temporary paint booth, fans, filters, paint suits, masks, spray gun, tack rags, etc.... You get the picture. That was for four colors and I clearcoated the Imron when I was done to blend the paint lines. Randy #95 Billy, if you use a PPG Polyeuthrane, which is probably the best this day and age, it should cost you around $500 for the paint. Jim It took two and a half weeks to paint mine, although cold weather slowed us down some. We bought 2 1/2 gallons of paint (Idon't know how much is left) and it will cost between $75 to $100 a quart. The good blue plastic strip tape is $6 to $8 a roll. We used 8 rolls. Add in masking tape, paper and other supplies it adds up. Jack #70 Someone was asking about PPG paints. I am in the midst of painting my ship, part by part, using the new PPG line. I've read plenty of good advice about painting on this list, and to be frank, I don't know why I bothering to paint this thing myself. One this for sure is I'm learning alot about painting. I suppose as I built the plane, I might as well paint it. Anyway, I'm having good luck the new PPG Global Refinish system. It's been tough getting the clear to flow but I finally got the gun and technique right and it's looking better than any paint I've ever seen on any airplane (I reserve the right to screw it up though). One gallon of base coat runs $231, but the whole system for one gallon of basecoat looks more like $910 when you add in cleaner, primers, thinners, hardeners, and clear coat. I expect to require $400 more worth of basecoat (RED for the flames etc) and another couple of quarts of clear coat to finish the airplane. To anyone interested, here is what I'm doing (under advice from my neighbor who's been a pro body shop guy for 35 years). --Sand all the metal with 180 grit paper. I use a fine little palm sander made by Ingersol Rand, model 4151. This will take down (minimize) the numerous high spots in the AL riveting and give a better finish than scotch bright pads will. Wipe it all down with PPG 330 wax remover cleaner. Immediately spray with PPG DX-1791/1792 self etching wash primer. This stuff is very thin and leave a clear gold anodized look to the metal. 30 minutes later, spray with PPG DP60LF epoxy primer. This comes in different colors. the "60" is blue as is my paint. The theory is that the closer the primer color is to the basecoat, the better it will cover. 30 minutes later, spray with PPG Global BC basecoat . As fast as I can clean the gun, it's ready for clear coat PPG D894. One "good" coat is all that's needed.This is difficult to do but getting easier. If in doubt, I put on a second coat (after 10 minutes) as it leaves enough clear behind to wet sand to a perfect finish. 4 hours later I can handle it with my hands. I can paint one part in the AM, get ready in the evening for the next. 11 down, 19 to go. In my home made paint booth, I will occasionally get some crap in my paint (dust etc.) Here the beauty of clear coat comes into play. These imperfections can be easily sand out out with 1200 grit wet paper, then the paint is polished with a machine polisher to a perfect finish. The whole process take 10 minutes max, and all the girls think I'm an amazing painter guy. WHY??? The base/coat clear coat weighs a bit more, costs a bit more, but is WAY easier for a rookie to get an EXCELLENT finish with. It's also easier for a rookie to apply and fix mistakes. Pros who paint full time can reliably get dazzling flow outs with single stage top coats, but I will never posses this level of skill, so base/clear coating is the way for me. Painting (and primering) opinions are like a$$holes. Everyone has one. Just need to find a way to make that trim stripe shine baby!! I'm not soliciting opinions here, trying to start a flame war or a discussion on primer. I've studied this paint stuff for months, talked to dozens of people about many many types of paint (NEVER will use IMRON 6000). I trust my paint guru as I've seen his time tested methods. It's working like he promised it would. I can't ask for any more. I'll post a picture of a flap or something tomorrow. See you guys at SNF, I'll be the bald guy with blue fingers sitting next to Bob Hayner at the beer shack. Warmest Regards, Bob Gross Hey Bob: I'll second the "amateurs have better luck with the base/clear" opinion. I have actually done some of that painting stuff, exactly as you mantion, and it did turn out OK. We are using the PPG DP series primers directly onto the alum sfc here (after acid etching the sfc) -- that stuff sure does flow out nicely, even tho we are using an HVLP gun from Harbor Freight! I can see that the HVLP system requires a bit more reducer to help the flow-out. No top coats here -- maybe some clear (with flattening agent added) later if we actually like the paint job...if we don't like it, then we'll scuff & top coat later. Cheers Mark You guys might check the sherwin williams Acryglow and Jetglow line. Last time I checked it was a hell of a lot cheaper and is probably the most fuel resistant paint going. Eric Hi Dave, I wanted to get a real good gun for this project. I went to the local paint stores that sell paint and paint guns and asked "what sells best?". The resounding answer was the Devilbiss GTI (G620 series) millenium edition with a gold 2000 air cap ($286). As for mistakes, the base coat applies easily and dries to a matt finish. Hard to botch it up, but if you do, it must be sanded and recoated before clear. As for mistakes in the clear, most are salvagable thru sanding and polishing or recoating. Runs, sags, orange peel, dirt, bugs are all sandable. I was amazed the first time I saw it done. Warmest Regards, Bob Gross I tried the HVLP and it puts out a lot of paint but the atomization was not good for me. Most of the painters I have talked to have tried HVLP and gone back to the old guns. I used to paint and had a body shop in the 50s. The new paints are much more forgiving than the old enamel but I am going to have a pro painter do mine. Blue skies Bob W I'll echo Bob's statement on HVLP...I found that I can do a better job with my old Sharpe 775 than I can with my Sharpe Platinum HVLP. I can't tell a difference in overspray, and read somewhere where Dupont did a study and they couldn't quantify paint savings... Bob MessageI have used the Jetglow/Acryglow system in the past and intend to use it on my Rocket. I'm not sure that the price is any different - I believe all the major manufacturers have quality products and it's just a matter of preference - but I painted an RG-182 for about $1300 with this system. The results were excellent and that's why I am using it again. FWIW Dave Vince, Oh yes, lots of advice... I went all out because I had a few extra minutes this afternoon. It is MUCH easier to paint the cockpit without the sides skin riveted on. Paint everything and then touch up the bucktails after the skins are riveted on. But you probably have a quickbuild, so you'll have to paint it as is. I would get a small airbrush like most hobby stores sell. Harbor Freight has cheap ones too. Either work fine. Get or make an adapter so you can use your regular aircompressor to power it. Use it to spray the interior paint. The worst part of painting the interior is that overspray gets all over the previously painted, but not quite dry yet, stuff. If you plan on painting small sections, rather than everything at once, you can cover up the finished parts with a sheet or whatever. Makes the finished parts much smoother. This is also why I like the small airbrush. Much less overspray and you can get it in the nooks and crannies where even a small touchup gun won't fit. Also the airbrush is good for the many small items you spray. For example, I used an airbrush to prime all of my 6061 angles, steel parts, etc. You quickbuilders won't have as much stuff to paint, but there's still plenty. I do like a touch up gun for most of the mid-sized jobs. Anything up to control surface size. Only for wing panels, fuselage, cowl, etc do I ever use a full sized gun. I used Sherwin Williams Sunfire on the interior and engine mount. That stuff is bulletproof. Even acetone doesn't touch it, so you can wipe off stray sharpie marks. I am quite pleased with it, even though it was $120 for the supplies I needed to paint the interior. That price included more hardener and reducer than I'll ever use. On the exterior I used PPG basecoat/clearcoat Concept products. I thought that they worked very well. Here's how I did my painting. The key to any spray painting is getting a good clean surface to spray. That's easily done on NEW airplanes that have NOT been flown yet, IMHO. Paint won't stick well to oil oozing rivets. Another tip to getting a good spray job is to always put the first coat on very lightly. Just enough to shade the surface. This gives the subsequent coats something to stick to and after the first coat dries a bit then it acts like a sponge and draws off the solvents from the subsequent coats. This helps prevent runs. You can prove this to yourself by painting a thick coat first and watching it run everywhere. I used scotchbrite pads to scuff the aluminum, then etched and alodined them. The paint supplier said I didn't need to do the scotchbrite step but I don't think it can hurt and nothing would be worse than a great paint job with poor adhesion. The PPG K36 filling primer fills quite well and is easy to sand. However, as you will find on the cowling, any pinholes must be filled first or they just keep coming through. For your first caot on anything fiberglass, you'll probably have the best luck by squeegeeing or using your finger to force the primer into the pinholes. Then wet sand everything off. Then you're ready to spray a coat of filling primer (if needed) or PPG DP40LF primer. The DP40LF can be used over anything up to 180 grit scratches according to my supplier. He must be correct because I didn't have any scratches show through. The basecoat dries to a somewhat uneven satin finish that doesn't look good at all. As long as there aren't any scratches showing though, it will be fine. Solid colors are easy to paint. Metallics aren't. If you don't do them exactly right, the metallic can separate and cause unsightly shadows, striped and mottled areas. The key is to put the metallics on uniformly, lightly, and dry. Dry means that you don't try to get the paint to flow out enough to gloss. The clearcoat was a hoot to shoot. It makes the basecoat come alive. The key seems to be to spray the clearcoat heavy enough to flow out the orange peel but not enough to run. The PPG stuff was very forgiving in that area, actually somewhat dificult to get a run. You DON'T want any orange peel because it's too hard to buff out. Much better to have a few runs as they are easily eliminated with a nib file followed with 2000 grit paper and buffing compound. I've even seen a razor blade used in place of the nib file to knock down the runs by scraping the blade across the run. PPG was expensive. I spent about $1800 on the various stuff required. But it went on fairly easily. If it's durable... I'm a happy painter. I'll let you know in 20 years. The biggest advantage/disadvantage to the PPG (and most other automotive paint systems) is that they are time sensitive. You have to put the basecoat on within one week of priming and the clearcoat within 24 hours of the basecoat. This is to save shop time as it eliminates the sanding steps in between. If you can keep up it goes quickly. But if you want a leisurely pace and prefer to sand between each step, then you'd better stick with more traditional paint systems. An advantage though is the clearcoat. It really shines and you can buff it as often as you want. Something that you can't do with some of the polyurethanes. Now, if you're in the People's Republic of Kalifornia, I have heard rumors that your paint supplier might not have the same stuff as mine. I don't know if that's true or not. Have fun and if things go awry... well that's why someone invented paint stripper and sandpaper. DOH! Vince Fiberglass Prime/Paint Any one have any info on painting the FG parts? I have the UV smooth prime on FG parts. I have heard that the acid etch primer doesn't do much good on FG. Do you just go with the DPLF Epoxy primer after the smooth prime then apply the paint system???billywaters Don't use the DPLF primer on glass. DPLF is great on AL but does not fill the imperfections and is impossible to sand LF stands for low fill. Use a high fill primer like PPG NCP 280. This is also a two part primer, fills great and is easy to sand. Greg Nelson I think Greg means to say don't use the DPxxLF stuff as a first coat, tho it would show you where ALL the pinholes are! We are using the DPxxLF stuff as a top coat, mixed with reducer to give an eggshell texture. We have used the UV Smooth prime here (tips), and it's pretty good. There is considerable sanding to get the stuff smoothed out as directed, but application is very painless and easy (small foam roller). It's non-toxic too, which makes it user friendly. And, you can drink the reducer (water, not beer). PPG K36 works about the same, and putting the K36 on with a rubber squeegee as a first attempt is actually pretty easy, but that sure won't be enough to get all the pinholes. More squeegee processes will be needed. We're going to start with the K36 on the cowl today, I hope, and we'll have a better report in a week or so. We sanded with 36 grit, so we have to use something like K36 to fill the scratches. Cheers Mark I used the UV primer inside and outside, saw all the pin holes and then put a heavy primer on the outside. The heavy primer wouldn't fill the pin holes so I squeeged a red filler on and sanded and primed twice. Hopefully your parts weren't set up as dry as mine were. Jack #70 PS: Iv'e heard there's a fiberglass product on the market that will fill pin holes before priming but I didn't get a name. Maybe someone knows. Hey Guys, Most body shops fill pinholes in body filler as Jack mentions. Spray primer-surfacer, squeege pinholes with the red stuff, block sand, then apply sealer. The red stuff is a one-part 3M product, I think it is called body glaze or something like that. Comes in a big tube, and sets up slow. Forget trying to fill pinholes with body filler, its too much work. Regards, Bob It is called glazing putty. I have a tube on the shelf of 3M Acryl Green Spot Putty. Best Howard Yesterday I started putting smooth prime on FG parts. I thought that I could fill all the pinholes using only UV smooth prime, didn't work too well. Today I got some of the red oxide body galze to fill the rest on the pinholes. Question is just how much of the red stuff is acceptable to leave on?? Do you sand all the red stuff off and just leave enough to fill all scratches and pinholes, or can you leave a red glaze over all the FG parts?? It's pretty much of a sanding chore to get all the red stuff off. I plan to spray a couple of coats of smooth prime as a final UV blocker.. One thing that I figured out was that if I got a very small 2 oz. jar, put some of the red filler in it and thinned it down with a little denatured alcohol it worked much better. Also instead of using a store bought squeege, I got a couple of file folders and chopped them into 3X4 inch pieces, i could just throw them away instead of having to clean them regularly............billy I would avoid using polyester(primer or filler) on epoxy as polyester will eventually fail when applied over epoxy, ruining the paint job. Mark is using Epoxy in his parts, and this is good as epoxy is far superior to poly, but does make using polyester a bad idea. BTW using epoxy over polyester parts works just fine. You know its polyester if you activate it with a few drops, its epoxy if the mix ratio is something closer to 4 to 1 or so. Anyway, what I did on my ship was force the first coat of primer into the pin holes with a squeegee, or brush or even a rag. Its messy, looks like crap, then you sand it all off, then spray and 90% of the pin holes are gone. I used some auto body glazing for the few that are left after the second coat of primer, but it is only in the holes, not in large patches or anything. Good luck. Its allot of work. Greg Nelson You need a firm spatula and only do the holes. This stuff does not sand well. A file folder is way too soft anf you can buy plastic spreader at Lowes and cut them to size. Forget the HVLP guns as all the pros have given up on them Bob W I have put k-36 on FG parts and need to final sand. Anyone know proper grit to use on K-36 for using base coat/clear coat system? thanks billy I used 600 grit prior to paint. Anything coarser than that will show thru scrathes in the base and clear. I normaly sand k36 with 180 girt until it is in the finished. Then repaint the whole part with k36 thinned out with 2 parts laquer thinner. I goes on thin and smooth. Just sand with 600 grit unitl all areas are real smooth, than clean and paint. Warmest regards, Bob Gross I am starting to paint Fiberglass. Have a couple scenarios...(1).. Sand FG Parts, , UV prime, one coat DP-50, two coats of K-36 sand and paint,...(.2. ) . Sand FG Parts, UV prime, (forget the DP-50,).. 2 coats of K-36, sand and paint. Any ideas, (comments) from paint gurus about the above methods....billy waters The DP50LF is HARD stuff. I've done it both ways (K36 under /K36 over), and I think I preferred the K36 over the DPXXLF better. There are several colors of the DP/LF primer: 40 is grey/green 48 is white 50 is grey 74 is red 90 is black The DP/LF primer cannot be tinted, but you can mix colors ro get what you want. You can eliminate the base coat of UV stuff with another application of K36 if desired. I didn't see any benefit for the UV stuff, except it was non-toxic. The UV Smooth Prime says you should sand it all off, and re-coat as necessary. Same with K36 (base coat), except it sands easier. Your call here. We put the first coat of K36 (under the DPXXLF) on with a bondo squeegee - don't thin this batch. We didn't try a 2" roller as is used with the UV Smooth Prime -- it might work better than a squeegee. It's certainly worth a try. Sand it all off, and spray on your DPXXLF product. Fill any remaining pinholes with K36 again -- and sand it all off again without sanding thru the DPXXLF layer. It will likely take 2 applications of K36/sanding process on top of the DPXXLF to get all the holes. Any holes left after 2 coats of K36 can be filled with red laquer putty. Oh: buy your sandpaper in BIG batches! I found the wet/dry 150 grit the most useful, until the final coat, where we used 180 or 220, depending on desired surface finish. 100 grit is good for the first coat of either UV Smooth Prime or K36. Remember: we didn't plan a topcoat over the DPXXLF mixed colors on our bird, so our final sanding was 220 grit. The DPXXLF will flow out nicely, especially if you over-thin it a bit. For use in an HVLP gun, we thinned to 200% of recommended amounts. Please let us know how this works out for you. Cheers Mark Fresh Air Breathing Systems Does anyone have experience with Fresh Air Breathing >Systems- and or recommendations on which one to >purchase? Protecting eyes and lungs is more important >than cost - don't need to go cheap here.!! (web >reference would be welcome) I'm getting ready to do a >bit of epoxy spraying on my Rocket. > Below are some of the fresh air respirators links that I located when looking for spray equipment last month. http://otsm.com/neoterik/systems.htm http://www.autobodystore.com/BreathingSystem.htm I would also go to google.com and throw in either the brand name or respirator and a few terms and see what comes up. I have been keeping my eyes on e-bay, but nothing has grabbed me yet. No specific recommendation yet from me. --Thomas Check these guys out. They make a turbine air delivery system that puts out plenty of cool air. Their masks are quite comfortable and seem to be of excellent quality. http://www.axispro.com/index_in.htm scot Epoxy vs. Powdercoat I'll soon need to paint my interior before installing >> the plumbing and will use sprayed epoxy primer and top Paint with something other than powder coat... Theres a lot of work, and many trips in and out of the cockpit I did all three in basci black. Powder coat the windshild bow, front seat brace and controls. Painted the canopy I like powder coat because: 1. It's fast. done in 20 minutes. No kidding. 2. Easy cleanup. 3. Cheap. Bill, just my opinion here. Powder coat is brittle, thick, heavy and ya need a big oven to get the big parts in.
Priming Prime the parts with a sealing primer. This is true for all STRUCTURAL parts of the airplane. Zinc Chromate is excellent. It get's a bad reputation because it's carcinogenic. I'm a physician and I can tell you, professionally, that it's my opinion that all primers are carcinogenic. Hell, steak and sex are carcinogenic too. As a matter of fact, you can reduce your risk of prostate cancer to zero. All you have to do is have your tesitcles removed, so all of life like all of flying is a compromise. Zinc Chromate is a KNOWN carcinogen because it has been around for a while. I use a forced air Hobbyco respirator. It cost about $700, it is much cheaper than a lung resection. Axis Products, 888 458-1322. Nice people. I use the new Dupont primer/sealant (2580S and 2505S). Dupont is a good company with quality products and because of automobile uses, the products are AVAILABLE. Sending off for paint is silly. The only time that I have had a problem with Dupont is when I used a NON sealing primer and didn't paint the part within ONE DAY (steel). Corrosion will form right through a non-sealing primer. The US Paint Milspec primer and paint are the best, I am told. They cost too much and are hard to use. Their own sales people will tell you that they are hard to use and try to talk you out of them. If you aren't in an airplane factory, these are probably a poor choice. Randolph makes Milspec primers, which are expensive and you have to send off for them. They make other primers which are excellent, but you have to send off for them. PPG makes a nice primer, but it's not a sealer, so don't use it on parts that will not be painted. Corrosion will occur right through a non sealing primer. Don't use unless planning to paint over it. The PPG product is very sensitive to temperature during application, so if you live in the north, I'd avoid them. Many certificated airplanes are not sealed, but remember, their skins are much thicker than on the F-1. I recommend that you seal structural parts. You will be able to find Larry Woods Venture at Osh Kosh. It doesn't have a speck of paint or primer on it and has won some speed awards. Look in the cockpit and you will see corrosion. It's working for Larry, but I wouldn't recommend this approach. Read the corrosion articles written by EAA chapter 1000 on corrosion. They discuss faying surfaces and things that you wouldn't otherwise know about. They don't recommend any products specifically but many guys in their group are pro's so they are a good resource. Zinc Chromate is fine. I recommend Dupont primer sealer because it's easier to obtain. It has worked for me but is new to the market and thus has no track record. Don't screw around with a cheap sprayer. For small parts use a Binks Model 115. It will cost you about $200. I've never used the HPLV technique. The Binks guys tell me it works well but takes time to master. Cleveland tool will sell you a backing plate which clings to Scotch Brite pads for use with a random orbital sander. Works VERY well in preparing aluminum. Ask for Mike or Buz, they know their stuff. I like the Sioux sander and find it to be worth the extra hundred bucks. That's about one grand to start priming 25 cent parts. So it goes with airplanes. Ralph Fairchild #40 Per PPG's spec's, DP50 becomes a sealer when reduced 50% with MEK. Don't ask me "how do it know", it just do. Paint specs for the stuff call for a primer coat then a sealer coat before the final finish. Personally I think a good epoxy primer is all you need. The metal will only out live your great grand children this way. Remember we've only had these high tech coatings around for a few years. There aren't any old planes with epoxy primer and stronium chromate to go back and look at. As far as what type, I have a good theory about paint products. If the EPA likes it, it's junk. Its probably not suitable for painting daiseys on their hippie microbus. If it causes all sorts of cancers and legions and three headed babies, then its good stuff. Just be smart when you use it or you can end up good and dead. Case in point, the Glassair builder back in '94 that just wanted to touch up some parts so he shot Polyurethane with a resperator and no shirt. The paint got in his arm pit and the isocynide killed him that same day. If your'e going to be stupid, you've got to be tough. A real good paint gun for the money is a Sharp Cobalt. They are sold at most automotive paint stores for about $139.00. You can find them on ebay new as well. Buy a good gun and learn to use the thing. Sharpe guns don't really suffer from the HVLP bugaboos that the the old time painters talk about. One thing I would suggest is a smaller orafice in the gun. I recommend a 1.2mm orafice, the norm is 1.6 - 1.8. You can paint anything with it and it breaks up the molicules so small that you don't have much orange peel at all (I'm talking finish painting here). Keeps the coats nice and thin and the overspray is near zero. Most auto paint stores will have replacement needles and caps in stock. Hope it helps Eric Henson #71 A real good paint gun for the money is a Sharp Cobalt. They are sold at > most automotive paint stores for about $139.00. You can find them on ebay > new as well. Buy a good gun and learn to use the thing. Sharpe guns don't > really suffer from the HVLP bugaboos that the the old time painters talk > about. One thing I would suggest is a smaller orafice in the gun. I > recommend a 1.2mm orafice, the norm is 1.6 - 1.8. You can paint anything > with it and it breaks up the molicules so small that you don't have much > orange peel at all (I'm talking finish painting here). OK: good info, but should we use this smaller orfice with the primer too? And: is it MEK mixed with the DP40, or simply some extra reducer? I used to know this, before I sprayed the stuff without a mask....!! DOH!! Mark To reduce DP40-50-60, mix it as normal and let the pot catalyze for ten minutes or so, ok I'll admit, I don't do this sometimes and really can't tell the difference. Then mix in an equal amount of MEK. Like I said before, be smart. I consider MEK liquid brain cancer. Its really evil stuff but is acceptable to use with a charcoal filter in your respirator, keep it off your skin ie. long sleeve shirt and gloves. As far as the orifice and primer, the 1.2 does a bang up job on all primers. Flows out nice and thin but still gives full coverage, I have a 1.8 orifice on another gun and it kind of just shellacs the stuff on. I have gone as far as spraying epoxy resin through this gun with the 1.2mm. Which brings me to another tip. I once got distracted while spraying resin out of my beloved sharpe gun. Next day I remembered. What a mess. The gun was full of fiberglass resin. Took it in to the local auto paint store to buy all new parts and they guy just handed me a can of "Naked Gun" paint gun cleaner. I left it in overnight and then rinsed the gun clean with the garden hose. Man, does this stuff work. Does not hurt the anodize but will dissolve any packings or o-rings in a minute so be careful. Fully disassemble your gun before soaking. Last thing, I have not tried this in a year or so but assume the following number is still good. This is PPG's faxback service. You can use your phone to get info faxed to you on all their products. You can get compatability info, specs, and how-to info by requesting it by touch tone phone. Its pretty good. Give it a fax number, punch in your request and your faxes come in within minutes. Hope this still works. Eric Personally I think > This is the correct opinion according to the guys at the Sport Air workshops. They recommend that you use an epoxy primer, that the epoxy is better than Zinc Chromate and that you don't need to cover it with anything else. Trouble is, manufacturers disagree and say that is why they make sealant primers. For this reason, I have gone with a sealant for parts that are not to be painted. At the rate I'm building my airplane, it will be my grandchildren flying it. Chances are you'd be fine with no primer for one lifetime, but I'm not much on chances. I have a few experimental pieces that I painted with the PPG stuff and left out in the snow and rain all winter. They do not appear to have corrosion, but I haven't taken them apart yet. A couple of corrections. One, the guy at Cleaveland Tool is Buzz, not Buz. Two, Eric is right, it's HVLP not HPLV. Never tried a Sharp Cobalt sprayer, so can't help there. I'll look out for them. Be careful what you say about "old time" painters sonny. :) One word about paint to all the fellas. DO NOT trust Aircraft Spruce or other vendors to know about paint. (Another reason to buy locally rather than mail order.) I have used and continue to use an etching filler primer made by Sherwin Williams called GPB e2g 980. It's $70 for a kit that makes 2 quarts. Sands in 30 minutes, sticks fantastic and if applied at least one mil thick provides excellent corrosion protection. I got started on this stuff as it is the recommended primer for their Sunfire line of paint. This is the same paint that Boeing paints missles and landing gear with. REALLY tough paint. Difficult to get a glossy finish but worth the effort as it has yet to chip on my airplane interior and I've been beating it good lately! I've also used exclusively the Sharp Cobalt HPVL or PLHV or PVLH or what ever it is gun. Talk about good mileage! I've done everthing interior on my ship, canopy frames, bows, boot cowl and still have 1/3 of a quart left. There is never any overspray on the ground or anywhere else in the shop. In fact I don't even bother covering up cars, toys etc. in the hanger when I paint. It's that good. Try this guys link to learn more about Sunfire, I did! http://lacodeworks.com/besing/paint.htm Regards, Bob Gross I've been working on my plane in a professional repair station (lots of biz jets etc.) and the owner does not like spray can zinc chromate at all although it's better than nothing for small parts that are not worth mixing paint for (they usually have some primer mix and in the refigrator along with lunch). Be very careful spraying these newer primers and paints they are much more lethal than laccor. Jack #70 Empennage parts - Built a 4'x3'x3' paint booth out of 3/4" PVC tubing covered with 4 mil plastic -- set on saw horses outside of shop. Hung the small parts on hooks made from coat hangers. Used a mini-HVLP gravity feed gun (4 oz cup) so I only need to mix up small amounts in unwaxed paper cups. Works like a charm. For initial priming prior to assembly - an inexpensive gun ~$100 works fine. -- PPG Dx 330 degreaser, DX1791 Wash Primer, followed by DP40LF Epoxy Primer. Took longer to clean up than to paint. Find a friendly local auto paint shop and follow their advice. Preparing skin surfaces for priming: To prepare the skin surface for priming, a scotchbrite friend of mine laughed at me priming the interior pieces of the kit that had been annodized. He said it was like putting sun-tan lotion on a tombstone. The annodize is so hard the primer has trouble adhering. Even though I use really good primer you can still scratch it off if you try. No way can you do this on bare aluminum. It was just about impossible to etch the annodize and I think its pretty futile. I have given up priming pretty silver pieces. The skins you will still want to prime. What kind? Heres what the Navy says (they operate some planes in salt water environments as I remember). The surface must be contaminate free, and free of pitting and other flaws. If possible, immediately treat with a conversion coating, if not seal with a primer sealer immediately to protect it from the environment. Another reason to do this is to protect it from the next layer of metal, metal to metal contact can be bad (in the very long term scheme of things) especially if the two metals are dissimilar metals. Keep in mind that this theory does not include consideration for Alclad aluminum. I would assume that alclad would greatly decrease the effects of dissimilar corrosion, just my guess. So the long of the short of it is, as any old time body man would tell you, get it really clean and then seal it from future contaminants. Will the primer you are using do this? More than likely. I used to hang out at Chino airport and get in peoples way at Planes of Fame. I got to be there (in the way) as they removed the wing skins off a P-40's wing. You would be very pleased if your mid-70's Piper looked this good inside. All they used was zinc-chromate, same as we used in the USMC on Phantoms. It held to the metal and kept it clean, so it worked. Currently I use Akzo primer. It is indestructable and is the best buy for the money. You can get two gallon kits for $59.00 over the internet. This is an extremely good deal. Do a search for Akzo (somtimes called Dexter) and you will find suppliers. Its very common stuff. And very good. Hope that helped Eric Hello Fellas: Sorry, but the 2 part product is better than spray can stuff. PPG 1791/1792 is nice looking, ans DuPont Vari-prime is also good. Vari-prime has many imitators which are likely just as good too. Get one of those $30 small spray guns for this type of work. Mark You should use automotive undercoating.... NOT... ha ha. Seriously though, I used Marhyde self etching on my RV-4 and it was OK, but needs a topcoat for real corrosion protection. On the Rocket I've been using Poly-fiber (used to be called Stits) epoxy primer. That stuff is bullet proof. I use a cheapo air brush from Harbor Freight to apply. You can mix up a small amount and prime a few parts easily. I usually try to gather a bunch of stuff at once to keep it efficient. Have fun.... priming really sucks. Definitely one of my least favorite jobs. But... "do it once, do it right" sure beats doing it over. Don't I know it! Vince for what it's worth, I have conversion coated (alodined) the inside of the empennage then used a mil spec two part epoxy primer. I found the time to alodine minimal. Like you, I was originally drawn to spray can (I have no prior spraying experience) but found some negative feedback on the RV list so went with the two part epoxy. I used Sherwin-Williams, same mil-spec as Akzo, (actually a strontium chromate primer which is less toxic than zinc but still as corrosion protective) but cheaper and a yellow color, which I prefer because of the color and because everyone else seems to be using the green stuff. Painting has been painless (with a small sprayer as Mark recommends) but it does help to plan ahead to coat as many pieces as possible at a time. Drying time for the S-W stuff seems to be on a par with quoted time for Akzo. I use MEK as solvent for cleanup, obtained at the aircraft supply section at Home Depot. Would recommend a charcoal filter mask (also from Home Depot) and good ventilation. Kevin Nate, What kind of specs are you looking for? I am using the PPG (I think Mark does too) and it works very well. It is a very tough coating, and sprays easy and dries fast. Looks like the parts are anadized too which is just a cool added bonus. Be sure to wear a respirator with good ventilation too. It has some hexachromate in it which isn't the best stuff for you. Scott Roth PS--There are many schools of thought on primers. Everyone thinks that theirs is the best. Any primer is better than none, and on alclad material, it may be questionable whether it is even needed. I think it helps, though. So, just pick one, and start building. If there's one do-over that I will do on the F1 it is to use PPG products for painting. Good stuff. Of all the 20+ RV's in the Indy area the airplanes painted with PPG Concept basecoat/clearcoat paint have the slickest, most durable finishes. The only other paint that is comparable IMO is Sikkens. Dupont paints seem to be too hard and chip easily. Bob Here is how I get all my paint info, have not needed it in a while but it used to work great. The attached message is from the rv-list Jan 2000. Hope it still works. Eric Henson -------------- OK, here's my archive-worthy contribution for the month. If you need any information on PPG Automotive Paint Products there are 2 really good sources of information available. The PPG Tech Line is 440-572-6111. They have real live humans who know most everything (at least the technical stuff) about their various products. More often you want some information in one of their Tech Bulletins. You can use their 24-hour-a-day FaxBack service to get those. Just call 1-800-450-2654 and follow the prompts to have the bulletins faxed to your fax machine within 10 minutes. When you call up the first time, have them send you all 9 of the Indexes (call twice, they will only send 5 items per call) of bulletins and these will show you the faxback codes to enter for each bulletin you want in the future. Here are some that people might find interesting: 7122 DP Epoxy Primers (including 48,50,90, etc.) 7141 DX1791/1792 Self-Etching Primer (AKA Vari-Prime) 7153 DP70 Epoxy Primer (the Mil-Spec one) 7163 DPE1538 Zinc Chromate Primer (Flat Black, for fenderwells, etc. Not Quite like aviation ZC) 7178 DX Solvent Cleaners 7196 DPLF Epoxy Primers (Lead-Free replacements for the DP 48,50,90, etc.) 7226 Metal Treatments (Etching, Alodining, etc.) The 9th index they have, the Miscellaneous category, even includes Paint Gun Setups for various brands and models as a starting point. Hope this helps. Thom Hamilton
Spray Guns Does anyone have knowledge abt Porter Cable gravity spray guns...they look pretty good, 3 different sizes (one with a 4.5 oz cup) and all under $100. Bob No, but... As has been mentioned eariler, the Sharpe HVLP Cobalt guns are great guns for the money. About $140 or so. I have a Sharpe Platinum HO gun that once I got used to it, works great. You really don't need anything better than the Cobalt to get good results, as I've found out. BUT...you do need a heck of a compressor to keep up with these guns. Make sure you figure out how many CFM's your compressor puts out, and with all your lines, etc that it will keep up with your gun. I have to tie two four-horse compressors together to keep up with the volume of air my gun uses. Bob I would have to say 1.5, my Platinum only has one tip size and that works for all viscosities of paints (not really, as I found out.) If you go to Sharpe's website http://www.sharpe1.com/recomend.htm <http://www.sharpe1.com> they have the recommended fluid tip sizes for the various brands/lines of paint. I think once you learn the gun you should be fine with a 1.5. Sharpe is very helpful with providing technical support when using their guns. Any time I've ever painted something and had orange peel, etc. they've been very helpful in getting the problem resolved. Bob Gentlemen, In my opinion the smaller the better. I swear by my 1.2mm and equate my 1.8 to a paint roller. I can flow out Imron or Concept unbelievably thin but still get good coverate. Having painted several cars and lots of airplane stuff over the years. The
|
||
| top of page |